L. Õunapuu: ''Latvian and Pärnu-type bagpipes are very similar, one might even think that Livonians and Latvians got the bagpipes from Estonia'' Pt.II

Interview with Lauri Õunapuu from Metsatöll on traditional instruments, worldwide audiences, the Baltic culture and criticism.

Folklore metal is important as it captures the essence and spirit of traditional folk music while infusing it with the power and intensity of heavy metal. It serves as a means of preserving and celebrating cultural heritage, as well as connecting modern audiences with the stories, myths, and traditions of past generations. This genre also allows for artistic expression and exploration of different musical influences, creating a unique and diverse sound that resonates with listeners around the world.

In this second part of the interview, learn more from Lauri Õunapuu from Metsatöll.

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Why do you think audiences from South America are interested in music from the Baltics? Your own music? These are different cultures, what makes them relate to this music? What makes music from Estonia/The Baltics unique?

As you know very well, South America is a large continent with many different cultures and peoples with many different roots, with their mixed cultures, with different visions of the rest of the world. I cannot say that the peoples of different cultures there are in any way particularly interested in the culture of the Baltic nations. However, there is probably a tendency that different peripheral parts of the world feel more about the outlines of traditional cultures, so they can perhaps better understand the history of cultures and their special features, even if they don't know much about it. Traditional worldview, mythicity that tends to disappear, village culture, mythical thinking - this is closer in time in rural areas than in the urban population of developed countries.

Being at a medieval festival in Brazil with Metsatöll, it seemed interesting that the new culture there - probably the urban people who immigrated from Portugal, etc., the core of the repertoire and image of the local "folk" bands there formed the pirate-romance, the culture of the conquistadors. But not the culture of the local forest peoples, the culture of the native people of South America.

I believe that they do not see, distinguish and feel the music or culture of the three small Baltic countries in any special way. Also, pseudo- or arranged culture inspired by the indigenous culture and spiritual heritage of our peoples. However, they appreciate the "real" thing being presented.

Do you see musical differences between Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania? What are they? What makes Estonian music different compared to the rest of Baltics?

Since my daily work is related to traditional folk songs, their roots and influences, I can confidently say that the music of each country has similar and also different features. Here, too, when talking about Finnish music, for example, it depends on what we are actually talking about - what we consider to be Finnish music is cultivated in a very wide territory, some of which is not located in the state of Finland today. There are also many different cultures in the country of Finland, which stand on different bases, even Finnish-Swedish and Sami. We can talk about Baltic-Finnish (Läänemere-Soome - the area around the Baltic sea) culture in the case of Finland, Karelia, Votic, Ingrian and Veps, as well as Livonia and Estonia . We cannot directly transfer this to the different regions of Latvia and Lithuania (although Latvia has historical regions and villages related to Estonian culture and -language). However, we are culturally very closely connected with the Latvians, in historical clothing-fashion, traditional art, etc. We also share a folk instrument, which is "kannel" in Estonia, from Finland to Lithuania. The playing techniques are different, the construction of the instrument is sometimes different, and the instrument tunes are also different, but we can say that it is generally the same instrument.

It is also interesting what fundamental myths are spread in Latvia about certain historical concepts. But, of course, it can be said that Estonia is not much different from this either - Estonians are generally not aware of their roots and cultural background either (and probably neither are representatives of other nations). I frequently come across the the same old myth about Latvian bagpipes that they have been described in chronic since the 16th century, in Livonia. This is an absolutely false statement that is repeated in Latvian researches again and again. Also, the myth in some countries, that the Estonian culture and language are somehow very close to Swedish, it honestly makes me shrug my shoulders!

Of course, it is very good that different theories and ways of interpreting history are present. However, hypotheses should be separated from facts that cannot be overlooked. After all, it is known on what inspired the illustrations made in our churches and pictures in books, and travel notes. And who were the artists and where they lived and where studied (usually). It is also known (usually) where and when the chroniclers of the time travelled and passed through. Based on these facts, we can conclude many things, that is not difficult.

The Chronicle of Renner and Russow of the 16th century tells about Estonian peasants who played bagpipes. In researches, "Vidzeme" has often been interpreted as Northern Latvia, which is not true. Even if you take the whole historical Livonia as "Vidzeme", which reached half of Estonia, this concept of Northern Latvia does not extend north to the Gulf of Finland, try as hard as you may. It is also a skewed conceptions in Münster's Cosmographia. And it gets even more interesting - Vidzeme and Livonia is also interpreted as Latvia, instead of Northern Estonia, although it has never been nor Latvia, nor Livonia, the corresponding note is in Olearius's travelogues (with the corresponding engraving by Rothgiesser, there you can see Estonian bagpipe-player in a wedding), where the action takes place in Kunda and Viru-Nigula.  And this is not a matter of interpretation, but basic fact-based source knowledge.

Of course, there is always the question of what we mean by "our" - country, language, culture, genetics? In this sense, the interpreters would have the right to put our entire cultural area under the name "we", but it could not be interpreted as a country, nor nation, called "Latvia" or "Estonia". Even more - if we talk about bagpipes, the oldest bagpipe reports in our area are from Novgorod, with whom we also shared culture, even to the extent that there are corresponding dictionaries written on birch-bark from 13-14 c. Although the word "duda" is mentioned for the first time in Tönnies Fenne's dictionary together with the Low German translation "sakpype" in 1607. However, parts of the 14th-century bagpipes have been found during excavations in old Novgorodian area (not to be mixed up with Russian state and Muscovites). Also, the Martebo church in Gotland has a (albeit German-style) decoration with a piper from the 13th century. They could also be considered "Latvia" as a country? For some reason, some researchers have not done this, because probably earlier researchers have not interpreted it this way.

What can be concluded from all this is that the bagpipe has been known in this area for a very long time, there is no reason to believe that this instrument was not already known here in the 16th century, BUT rather several centuries earlier. However, there is no basis for proof that the 16th century was the beginning of Latvian bagpipes. If we continue to talk about bagpipes, Latvian and Pärnu-type bagpipes are very similar. One might even think that Livonians and Latvians got the bagpipes from Estonia, who learned from whom, when and under what motives - no one knows that. Also, the Swedish bagpipe is very close to the Estonian pipe, it is the same family of instruments that was known around here.

But, like I said, I'm very, very happy that there are people, that there are scientists and hobby-researchers who have the opportunity to deal with traditional culture, who are not afraid when publishing articles that after years the concept of history may change, new facts and proofs, sources may be found. It is very important that the national funding of so-called "soft" sciences is also continued. Also science that deals with issues of nationality and national culture, that in some point could be have no meaning in the future.

It is always interesting to think about the conception of "they" and "we". We have pure luck that we have the opportunity to be a nation in our own state. However, we must never forget that the state, genetics, culture and language are quite different phenomena, which do have points of contact, but we cannot draw an equal sign between them. We have to hold on to what we have, because it makes us a nation with its own identity, its own distinctiveness, and thus gives the answer to humanity's biggest question; Why?

Are Estonians proud of their pagan roots? And why do you think it is important to showcase national identity through discussing mythology/paganism within music?

Estonia has no connection with "Pagan roots ". Here the "pagan" means should be defined. Let's leave aside the etymology that roams the name-calling and nicknames between Roman soldiers, local villagers and Christians, and non-Christians and non-military. What do we mean by the word "pagan" today - a non-Christian or a pre-Christian time period? In this sense, the whole world can be summed up with the word pair "pagan roots". Christianity itself has also been adopted from a mixture of traditional myths, fairy tales, folk-customs and stories. Therefore, Christianity has also "pagan roots".

Of course, the Balts also have a pre-Christian era. The peculiarity of Estonia, however, is that we as a nation have never adopted the Christian worldview - they have tried to integrate it into the culture. Estonians themselves have also tried to do this, but fortunately or unfortunately culture works differently - there will never be a final end to one cultural phenomenon and the beginning of another from a white and clean page.

Music and songs don't end overnight and new music and new songs don't start the same way, we are lucky that in such a periphery and wild thinking as has been preserved in Estonia for a very long time, that part of ancient music and worldview is preserved, which has been lost in many other countries. The language and motives in the songs that were written down 70 years ago, many of them are from a mythical era, which is even difficult to grasp - the language has been preserved in songs for 700-1000 years, but the topics that some songs talk about can be 2000-4000 years old.

When talking about mythology and folk culture, it should be noted that modern people don't know much about it, during the period of national awakening (which was all over Europe) a lot of new mythology, pseudo-mythology was written, as if ashamed of their own and genuine culture - it happened on a similar basis in all the Baltic countries. Even today, there are enough hobby historians and naïve people mixed with new-age world-view who truthfully talk about their own culture, which has absolutely no background. Such pseudo-historians and pseudo-folklorists do a disservice to the nation's sense of its own culture and understanding of folk culture. The great myth of happy and harmonious pure nation and its culture is the biggest mishandling of a national thinking.

What is important for the Estonian listener? Can you say that pagan music is part of Estonian identity? Is metal or rock part of Estonia’s identity?

Again, there is no music that can be categorized under the words "pagan music". Therefore, understanding it or not understanding it is not a question. In Estonia, the understanding of the old culture has been devalued due to the Soviet era and the naïve approach to folk culture before that. They wanted to turn village music into something that would be acceptable to modern people. Which would bend to the requirements of safe music of modern times. Not paying attention to the fact that the music that was cultivated hundreds of years ago is far from being comparable to the modern developed form of music.

Therefore, it is very important that recognized specialists in their field are asked to speak and present folk songs and folk culture. However, it is understandable that it is very difficult to find a media surface and an application for it. Just because of the same two absolutely different worlds. Music that does not seem comprehensible and safe to a modern person, he treats it with a certain reservation, perhaps also feeling embarrassed by the primitiveness of his culture. Fortunately, there are those who think the opposite, learn songs and instrumental music from archive recordings (use it with respect, both sc. "high" and in terms of our understanding of "low" culture) and do not follow the pseudo-historical and pseudo-mythological path.

Have you ever faced criticism from political powers or government, religious establishments, or individuals because of your music? How did audiences react to your music at the start, at 1999?

In the early years of the ensemble, of course, partly also due to our ability to play the instrument not so well, there were quite a few indicators and laughs behind our backs. But, the understanding that it is also possible to play music in Estonian in the outside world, it changed sometime in the 2000s. I believe that also was a little in connection with Metsatöll. Metsatöll was and is therefore like every Estonian thing - there are still people who want to tell all people, that we should do this or that, how we should do it, where we should go and what we should sing.

What was the music scene in the 90s in Estonia? Considering the fall of the Soviet Union in 1991, what impact did this leave for you and for the music in Estonia?

The music of the 90s was almost the same in Estonia as in other parts of Europe, music that seemed popular was played by radio stations. Compared to the Soviet era, there were fewer popular professional jazz musicians, the music that used to be (and whose quality) was controlled by certain institutions no longer appealed to young people. They didn't appeal to the masses either, they wanted what was popular elsewhere - mostly simple synthesizer pop of low artistic quality.

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In case you missed part I:

Photo ©Metsatöll